INTERVIEW WITH BRUCE PAULSEN DATE 26 SEPTEMBER, 2012 DW 00:00:15 I'm Don Watson and I'm talking today with Bruce Paulsen about his architectural career and other related matters. The recording's being made in the Fryer Library and I forget the date. The 26th of September, 2012. Bruce, can I start of by asking you about your parents? BP 00:00:35 Both my parents were Norwegian and my mother's family came to Australia in 1900 and my father came to Australia in 1920. They were subsequently married and then I was the second child, I was born on the 19/11/1926. DW 00:00:58 Your father was a ship's captain? BP 00:01:00 My father was a master mariner and my mother was a school teacher. And, we have records of our family, my father's family has been traced back to 1335 and my mother's family has been traced back to 1650 and we have the genealogical tree. DW 00:01:23 How many brothers and sisters did you have? BP 00:01:25 I had one brother, Harold, who was also an architect and two sisters. My eldest sister was married to a master mariner and my younger sister was married to a naval captain. DW 00:01:36 What made the two boys do architecture; what provoked an interest in that field? BP 00:01:44 I have no idea. DW 00:01:46 When did you decide to do architecture? BP 00:01:48 Six weeks before senior exam. DW 00:01:50 And, is your brother the same; was he younger or older? BP 00:01:52 My brother was younger and he, I think, determined to do architecture somewhat earlier than I did. DW 00:01:59 And, following your example? BP 00:02:00 And, following me. Yes. DW 00:02:02 Where did you go to school? BP 00:02:04 Brisbane Grammar School and I finished there in 1943 and subsequently then completed the architectural course at the University of Queensland, as a night course in those days. DW 00:02:18 Did you do drawing at school? BP 00:02:20 No. DW 00:02:21 No drawing? BP 00:02:21 No drawing. DW 00:02:22 At all? BP 00:02:23 As a matter of interest I found, six weeks before senior, that I had to do senior art to become eligible for the architectural course, so I had six lessons and passed. DW 00:02:35 Yes, it wasn't a terribly hard exam, I did it like that too. Not quite as quickly as you did, but I did it outside the school. BP 00:02:42 So, that's what happened. DW 00:02:44 Yes. Then, the course you were enrolled in was? BP 00:02:49 A diploma course. DW 00:02:50 And, it was a combined course with the Central Technical College and the university? BP 00:02:55 That's correct, yes. It was done at - basically, the university in those days was not out here at St Lucia, as you know, it was run from George Street and we attended night courses - night classes there and some of the course was done out here in the last year I think, university course. DW 00:03:21 So, it was a part time course and you had a job during the - - - BP 00:03:24 That was correct, yes, we worked five and a half days a week and no time off for study, no time off for exams, the exams were done at night or at the weekend in your own time. DW 00:03:35 And, where were you working? BP 00:03:37 I worked two years for the State Government to start with and then subsequently I worked for the whole of the rest of my course with Addison McDonald, who were a quite well known firm at the time. In 1950 I then went and worked for Conrad and Gargett for about six months, prior to my going to England, where I was there for about 18 months. DW 00:04:04 Did you work in England? BP 00:04:05 I worked in England for Verner Rees and also TP Bennett and Son, who were, I think at that time, probably the largest architectural firm in England. DW 00:04:16 Can we take that a bit more slowly; what did the Works Department have you doing as a cadet? This was in the Treasury Building. BP 00:04:28 In the Treasury Building, yes, it was a mixture of work. I suppose commensurate with my ability at that stage and the stage of my career. I think I started off on toilet blocks. DW 00:04:43 That's common now. BP 00:04:43 Which was common, and, gradually got more there. There were well known people who worked there at the time. Cam Scott was an employee at the time, Cam Scott was there. DW 00:04:59 He was a bit older than you? BP 00:05:01 He was about four years older, four or five years older than I if I remember correctly and a lot of the architects that were working there are mentioned of course in your book, The Directory of Queensland Architects to 1940. DW 00:05:14 Do you remember any particular people - do any particular people stand out? BP 00:05:18 I can remember practically everyone of them. DW 00:05:21 What about Cec Fergo [00:05:51], what was he like? BP 00:05:23 Cec Fergo, very, very slow and pedantic. Cec Fergo, yes, in fact I sat right in front of him and - - - DW 00:05:39 Do you remember any buildings that were being done that were of interest to you? BP 00:05:43 Not really. DW 00:05:44 No. BP 00:05:44 It was during the war time and it was mainly remodelling and repairs and a lot of that stuff and quite minor work. Quite a lot of the architects that were there actually had worked for the, I think, the Allied Works Council and also, I think, for the Civic Construction Corp, the CCC and the AWC. And, they were all mentioned here. DW 00:06:07 Could you have gone into the army instead of starting architecture or? BP 00:06:11 That's something I would rather not comment on. DW 00:06:14 No. No. JG 00:06:15 Could we go a step back and ask when you were studying who your teachers were and who the people were you were studying with, do you remember? BP 00:06:22 Who was I studying with? DW 00:06:23 Yes, who. JG 00:06:24 And, who the teachers were? BP 00:06:25 Yes. A particular friend of my was George Williams. He became a partner in Lewis and Williams later on. There was Lynn Gamble who worked, I think, for the Commonwealth. There was Arnold Just who also worked for the Queensland Railways and also Arthur Mudd who worked for the Commonwealth Department. Several of them actually had come out of the army, they were released from the army fairly early for manpower reasons. DW 00:07:03 To help with - in offices and - - - BP 00:07:06 To complete their course and also to work in the Works Department of the - they were the ones that - or all of the other Commonwealth Departments - because there were virtually no private architects in occupation at that stage. DW 00:07:19 No, they were closed down. Yeah. Yeah. Who were the staff of the university, who was giving the courses? BP 00:07:24 Bob Cummings was in charge and Charlie Fulton and also we had Karl Langer, for town planning, and Jack McWilliam spoke on structural mechanics as it was called in those days. And, then of course we had Bruce Lucas for specifications and contracts. So, they were the principle ones. In fact, if I remember correctly, they were probably the only ones there. And, we did have occasionally, a quantity surveyor came in and gave us some advice too. Some - - - DW 00:08:05 Walls? BP 00:08:07 No, no. Not Jim, not Jim Wall, no. I've forgotten his name now. DW 00:08:11 Hawgood? [00:08:11] BP 00:08:13 No. It was Tom Cranitch [00:08:13], Tom Cranitch and somebody else. I've forgotten their name now. DW 00:08:21 Do you remember what Prof Cummings talked about at all? Did he give lectures on design? BP 00:08:27 I presume so. I presume so. It's a bit - Charlie Fulton perhaps more so than Bob Cummings on that. Yes. In fact, I must say that I found all of those architects practical. Because, they'd all been in practice. Whereas I think, with all due respect, a lot of lecturers now days haven't had the practical experience and I think the students miss quite a lot because of the lack of practical experience. DW 00:08:58 Yep. But, what buildings did you admire in the early years of the course. I mean, you mentioned Fulton, was his work before the war work that you admired? Like Nudgee Junior and buildings like that? BP 00:09:11 I can't. People didn't have cars so you didn't get around very much. The main building you met, well, you didn't get around. And, that was probably a - and, there weren't, shall we say, very many outstanding buildings from the pre war period. That's my opinion now. They were competent buildings, but not, shall we say, outstanding examples of architecture. DW 00:09:44 Was Langer doing anything yet? He was working for the railways or? BP 00:09:48 Yes, he probably was at that time. Then he was in practice towards the end and because he did the Main Roads Building up on Boundary Street wasn't it? Then he did quite a few - quite some houses, some very nice houses were done at that period, several on the Gold Coast, if you remember. DW 00:10:07 Yeah. The library at that time, of the university, was down in that big block at the end near old Government House. Were there architectural magazines that students looked at? BP 00:10:20 I don't - quite frankly I can't ever remember visiting it. DW 00:10:25 Because it was part time anyway. It may not have been open at night. BP 00:10:28 Well, no, you only went down there at night time. DW 00:10:32 Did students look at magazines or when you did design what did you look at as a source of ideas? BP 00:10:37 I would suggest you - well, I suppose our source was the American publications, Progressive Architecture and Architectural Record. They were the two major ones and then of course we had the opportunity occasionally to buy books on design. DW 00:10:55 So, do you remember any that you bought? BP 00:10:56 Brazil Builds, Sweden Builds, Italy Builds. There was Built in USA which was a very nice little publication and they were the ones that we saw and we were brought up with. And, plus, of course, you were grounded a fair bit in the History of Architecture, Banister Fletcher, which is still a great guide book. If you travel. DW 00:11:18 Who lectured you in history? BP 00:11:22 Charlie Fulton. DW 00:11:24 Was he a good lecturer? BP 00:11:27 Yes. He was enthusiastic and anyone that's enthusiastic is a good lecturer. It's when they sort of are not enthusiastic, they are not good lecturers. DW 00:11:38 You did well in the course? BP 00:11:43 Well, may I show you something? It's somewhere here. DW 00:11:57 And, that was what for coming top in the whole of your course? BP 00:12:02 I think I topped every year, plus the final year when I got the bronze medallion. There wasn't much opposition, only a few of us. DW 00:12:12 That's good. Yes. Do you still have the bronze medal; do they give it to you or? DW 00:12:16 It's still pride of place at home of course. Not that I polish it much now. JG 00:12:24 And what was your thesis on because you won the thesis - - - BP 00:12:27 No thesis. JG 00:12:28 No thesis? BP 00:12:28 No thesis in those days. It was a very easy course. The course was more a slog than having to be brilliant. DW 00:12:38 How many nights a week would you go? BP 00:12:40 Three nights a week and occasionally Saturdays. DW 00:12:44 Saturdays after work? Because, you worked Saturday morning. BP 00:12:46 Oh yeah. DW 00:12:46 Did private offices work Saturday morning too? BP 00:12:49 Yes. You worked five and a half days and unfortunately one of the - the end result of all of that, I had to give up playing cricket. DW 00:13:00 Were you a good cricketer? BP 00:13:01 I had my time. I was captain of cricket at the Brisbane Grammar School. DW 00:13:06 Yes. Okay. BP 00:13:07 So, then, by default probably. DW 00:13:10 No, there would have been a big school. That would be - - - BP 00:13:13 No, only 330 pupils in those days, it was very small. DW 00:13:16 Still, that's 80 a year, it's still quite a few. BP 00:13:21 Yes, well, you know. DW 00:13:23 Still had a cricket team. BP 00:13:25 It was a very different life in those days. Very different life. DW 00:13:29 Where were you living in Brisbane at that time? BP 00:13:30 I lived at Greenslopes all the time. DW 00:13:33 Yes. In what sort of a house? Had your father build the house? BP 00:13:40 Well, he had it built in - 1926 it was built and it was extended in 1930 or 1931. DW 00:13:47 Did he use an architect to you know? BP 00:13:48 No. No. No one used an architect. DW 00:13:51 Is it still there? BP 00:13:51 Its still there, yes. Sold for an exorbitant amount recently. DW 00:13:55 Whereabouts - what was its address? BP 00:13:58 It was in Bindaree Street, Greenslopes. DW 00:14:03 And, 1926 it was built? BP 00:14:05 Yes. That's right. It was a typical house in that era. DW 00:14:08 Worker's dwelling? BP 00:14:09 That's right. Yes. Most people's houses were that in those days. DW 00:14:12 But, done as a worker's dwelling? BP 00:14:13 Yes, that's correct. DW 00:14:14 Well, they've had architects, I mean, I've been looking at some recently. BP 00:14:17 That's right. DW 00:14:18 Prof Cummings even worked for the - - - BP 00:14:20 Did he. Good heavens. DW 00:14:21 Well, no, I might be getting mixed up, he worked for Brown & Broad but they did have the whole architectural division. BP 00:14:25 That's right. Brown & Broad had an architecture division, churning out timber houses. That's right. DW 00:14:31 But the worker's dwelling board had employed architects and you went and discussed the brief and they modified a standard plan. BP 00:14:38 I was somewhat small at that time. DW 00:14:40 Yeah sure. I should look it up. No. I just looked it up for one in Maryborough. We'll talk about Addison and MacDonald a little bit, but that was a very celebrated firm. BP 00:14:52 Yes. And - - - DW 00:14:53 Before the war. BP 00:14:52 Yes. And, before the war they had a very good practice and after the war they had a good practice. There were only - there was Addison and MacDonald, Reece Davies was their chief draftsman and he'd come to Queensland and worked, I think, on the City Hall. Sam McDonald came to Queensland and worked on the City Hall. And, Ken Drew - is he still alive? DW 00:15:25 No. BP 00:15:26 I didn't think so. DW 00:15:26 Died a long time ago. BP 00:15:27 Well, Ken Drew was also working there at the time and - - - DW 00:15:30 And, he was in your year? BP 00:15:31 No. Ken was a year ahead of me. DW 00:15:32 A year ahead? BP 00:15:33 Yes. And, Peter Newell worked for Addison McDonald for about six months. DW 00:15:38 Before he joined the , whatever - - - BP 00:15:39 Before he became Chambers & Ford. Yes. That's right. So, I was there for about four years. DW 00:15:47 What sort of work was going on in the office? BP 00:15:48 A mixed bag. Hotels. Quite a lot of hotel work because they did the hotel work - both breweries they did the work for. They did it for the old CEL, which is now of course now of course, the City Electric Light, Energex, they did the power station down at Bulimba, the Bulimba B Power Station and that was - and they did the first big factory in Brisbane after the war they did was Bruce Pie's factory out at Geebung. They did that, I worked on that. DW 00:16:17 This was Geoffrey Pie's - - - BP 00:16:19 Geoffrey Pie's father. That's right, his father had a factory there, yes. DW 00:16:26 Did you work on some of those in particular, do you remember? BP 00:16:29 I was only a student you know, so I was down the line. DW 00:16:33 Yes. Yes. And, then you - did you work briefly for Driver? When was that? BP 00:16:40 I worked for - - - DW 00:16:42 That was just before you went to Lund Hutton? BP 00:16:43 I went to - - - DW 00:16:47 Conrad and Gargett. BP 00:16:48 Conrad and Gargett for about six months then I went to England for about 18 months and then when I came back I worked for Conrad and Gargett again. I mainly worked on the hospital work. I did some work at South Brisbane at Princess Alexandra and also the Prince Charles Hospital. In fact, I was mainly involved with the nurse's block and the nurse's quarters. DW 00:17:08 Is that the big block? BP 00:17:10 I've never seen them finished, so I don't know what it is, who it belongs-- DW 00:17:15 Who's the designer for the Princess Alexandra or South Brisbane as it was then called? BP 00:17:19 At that time - - - DW 00:17:20 Within Conrad and Gargett, who was responsible for ? BP 00:17:26 I can't remember on the Princess Alexandra, but Elmars Kraams [00:17:14] was principally involved with the hospital at Prince Charles, if I remember correctly. Elmars, he was - I had a lot of time for his capacity. He was a Latvian. DW 00:17:43 Did he stay with Conrad and Gargett? BP 00:17:45 No. He went to Westfield and was on their architectural team there. But, he did work for us for a while for Lund, Hutton and Newell- I think when it was Ford Hutton and Newell, at that time. DW 00:18:01 Did you ever meet Ford? Just jumping ahead of you. BP 00:18:04 Eric, yes, he's a nice old gentleman. DW 00:18:07 Well, tell us about Eric? BP 00:18:10 He had a limp, but he'd been - I think wounded in the first world war. He was an artillery man there. He was a charming man. A real gentleman and he was pleasant to work for but he was sort of drifting out of the business when I joined the firm. Yes. But, I - after coming back and working for Conrad and Gargett then I did work for about six months for H G Driver - Peter Driver. DW 00:18:41 What was that like, what was he doing at that time? BP 00:18:47 Shall we say, our relationship became soured. DW 00:18:51 Yes. BP 00:18:52 And, I was not the only one. I was not the only one that had that experience, so I'd rather not say anything more about it. DW 00:18:59 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. BP 00:19:02 Subsequent from that I then went and joined, at that time, Ford Hutton and Newell because I knew Peter Newell and I knew Theo Hutton of course. DW 00:19:10 Theo was in your year? BP 00:19:12 No. Theo finished a year behind me. DW 00:19:14 One behind? BP 00:19:15 That was because he'd served as a bomber pilot in the Middle East and Italy during the war and he came back and then completed his course. DW 00:19:23 He'd started before the war? BP 00:19:24 He'd started before the war. DW 00:19:25 And stopped? BP 00:19:26 He worked for George Ray. DW 00:19:28 Okay. George Ray was a nice old guy. BP 00:19:29 I never met him, because he was deadly that time of day. Did you meet him? DW 00:19:32 I did. No. I met him, he was remarkable. It was a very memorable exchange, I went down to - you're the - the phone book I think is how I found him and he was living down in a little unit, a tiny unit, at Redcliffe and I thought, this poor old man and yet he was remarkable. Then he kind of opened up what he'd done and all these theatres and the house at St Lucia that Macarthur was offered as a residence in Brisbane to live in and - - - BP 00:20:06 And, he was mostly noted for his theatres - the cinemas I think. DW 00:20:08 Yeah. And, a wonderful draftsman an absolutely superlative draftsman. BP 00:20:11 All were good draftsmen. All the architects in those days could draw. DW 00:20:14 But he was the best of the best of them. BP 00:20:16 And, of course he did the certificate for when you became an architect. DW 00:20:21 That's right. Both for Queensland and New South Wales. BP 00:20:23 He did the New South Wales one as well? DW 00:20:25 New South Wales one also. He was down in Sydney for a while. Yes. BP 00:20:26 Good heavens. DW 00:20:28 Yeah. No, he was very - but, he was still alive when we did an exhibition that came out of that book and when Fryer first started collecting drawings we had an exhibition at the City Hall and he came - - - BP 00:20:40 Yes, this was, Theo of course worked for him and Theo was a good draftsman and could draw. DW 00:20:43 Yeah. Okay. BP 00:20:44 So, it all sort of, brushed off onto him. DW 00:20:46 Off Theo, yeah. Well, he probably demanded it, he probably expected good people and only employed good people. BP 00:20:51 Yes. Right. So, after, what do I say now. DW 00:20:55 Well, let's talk about the partners then of Ford Hutton - you joined Ford Hutton and Newell? BP 00:21:00 That's correct yes. DW 00:21:01 So, Theo was Theo Hutton and had been in the air force. What else can you tell us about him? BP 00:21:06 He became registered because in that period, when you started you could be registered after four years, even if you were still doing your course. So, he became registered. DW 00:21:17 Before he'd finished the course? BP 00:21:18 Before he'd finished the course. DW 00:21:20 That's a good plan. BP 00:21:22 So, he became that and then he - I think he - he was with Chambers and Ford and then he became a partner and then they brought Peter in, as far as I remember. Then, I joined and worked for them only for a short file and Neville Lund was there at the same time. Neville Lund had been a - - - DW 00:21:47 And, he was working in the firm before you? BP 00:21:50 That's right, but he was about two or three years behind me because he started his course after the war because he'd been a navigator - Lancaster navigator and survived, I think, 17 operations over Germany, which was very good, to survive that number. So, I became - I suppose, I became - Neville was my probably closest friend throughout my life. DW 00:22:14 Okay. When did he die? BP 00:22:17 It would be about - - - DW 00:22:19 It was quite early wasn't it? BP 00:22:21 He would have died about 1982 - 83 or something like that. He died from bowel cancer, unfortunately. So, I joined and then both Neville and I, we became associates I think in the same year I joined the firm and then subsequently the following year I became an partner and so, it was Theo, Eric Ford retired, there was Theo Hutton, Peter Newell, myself, Neville and that was the four of us. DW 00:22:56 Talk about Peter Newell a little bit. BP 00:22:58 Peter Newell, I was probably one of the first people to know him in Queensland and he was - in some respects he was a bit of a breath of fresh air to a rather stodgy architectural profession at that time. And, he was a person that was hard and I think not everyone warmed to. But, when you got to know him he was a very bright man and with a lot of ideas that he put forward, which were subsequently taken on board within the profession. Even though some people would rather not give him the credit. 00:23:41 He was flamboyant. He'd be the only person in Brisbane walking down the streets wearing a beret. DW 00:23:50 Where was the office? BP 00:23:51 We had an office in the Equitable Life building to start with. DW 00:23:54 Which was where? BP 00:23:57 Down the end of Queens Street. You know where the memorial is to that fireman? DW 00:24:00 Yes. BP 00:24:01 It was the building right alongside there. It was just subsequently knocked down. DW 00:24:04 For Pearl Assurance. BP 00:24:05 Pearl Assurance, it was knocked down and we were there and then when we went from there we went up and we bought a building in Leichhardt Street, Spring Hill, as you probably know. DW 00:24:14 Yeah. The Petrie Building. BP 00:24:16 Mountjoy, Mountview House. That's right. And, we bought that and we were there for quite some years and we tended to outgrow it, so we then went out to the - we took the top floor of the RSL Toowong. DW 00:24:33 When did you move into Toowong? Early sixties? You were there by '63. BP 00:24:41 Well, '61 I came back, it would have been about '62 or '63. Yes, because I came back. In about 1956 we started to get work in North Queensland, through Peter Newell's connections, especially with the Church of England. DW 00:25:01 Did he have connections with the Church? BP 00:25:03 Well, he knew them. DW 00:25:04 He knew everybody. BP 00:25:07 He knew everybody and we went there and we asked Ian Black who was at that time working for the Commonwealth. We appointed him and we said - - - DW 00:25:20 He was working for the Commonwealth at Townsville or - - - BP 00:25:21 No. In Brisbane and then he went up as a principal there and he was only there for a relatively short time when the practice became a pretty busy and they asked me if I'd go, which I did go. And, I was there from the middle of 1956 to 1960 when they asked me to come back to Brisbane to handle some major work. Which I did. But, I went back and - a great amount afterwards, I'd regularly visited North Queensland, because, unfortunately Ian Black developed a tumour on the brain. Did you know that? DW 00:26:03 Yes I did. And, then I didn't quite understand what happened to the firm. Like, he was in the name of the firm wasn't he, for some time? BP 00:26:10 Yes. He was the name. That's correct. DW 00:26:09 It was Lund Hutton, Newell, Black and Paulsen. BP 00:26:12 We did that and we shouldn't have done that. It would have been preferable if we'd just kept, in some respects, Ford Hutton and Newell forever, as some firms do. Because, there was a bit of - this created a bit of a problem later on when Ian Black, with his brain tumour - quite frankly and, off the record, he wasn't quite right and three of the staff induced him to break away from the firm and take out business. DW 00:26:48 And, was that Ralph Power and people or before Ralph? BP 00:26:51 Not Ralph, no, not Ralph. DW 00:26:53 Earlier people. BP 00:26:54 Earlier people, which I won't mention there names and I found out what was happening when I went up there one time, something strange was happening, and I found out what was happening and I - quite frankly, I sacked them and gave them five minutes to be out of the office and it created quite a few - then I had to sort out the absolute mess that had been done because, poor Ian was in the - not in a position to fully understand what was happening. It was quite a nasty business for some time because he was very popular, he was a very nice fellow, he was a man's man and he could mix in any company and he would never do anything wrong and this was what happened. Which was a great pity and unfortunately, because I had been with him there, I had to bear the responsibility of trying to sort out the mess. Which, we subsequently did and then we asked John Morton, because Morton Hurst and Ryan had been brought in as associates in the firm, in Brisbane, we asked John Morton if he'd go and he went up there. And, he was there for some years. DW 00:28:09 Do you know anything about Black's training. Where had he - he was working for the Commonwealth? BP 00:28:15 He worked for the Commonwealth. DW 00:28:16 Do you know anything about him before that? BP 00:28:18 Yes. I do know a bit. He'd actually started off in the CPS office in Charters Towers. But essentially as a clerk, and he subsequently went into the Navy and was a Lieutenant in command of a fair while, in the New Guinea campaign, so he had a good, shall we say, officer background. In that term and Ian was a very nice fellow and his wife was a delightful lady too. DW 00:28:49 Then he only did architecture after the war? BP 00:28:52 Yes, that's correct. As so many did. DW 00:28:56 Yes. The school exploded with - - - BP 00:28:57 Well, you would have seen that in going through that. DW 00:29:02 Well, we didn't really go quite that far, but I can see looking at the numbers now that it's quite small years, relatively no time, and then some of the years two or three times the - - - BP 00:29:09 That's right. Bernie Lewis was one of them and some of the others came back, like, Phil Edwards, he was in the air force in Europe and quite a lot of the others came - - - DW 00:29:20 Can I ask you about Phil Edwards. He's a - well only because - for some reason, I had this exchange with his daughter who knows my wife and so I've looked at him and his father and he's the second generation, his father was an architect. BP 00:29:35 Was his father an architect? DW 00:29:36 Yes, a very good architect who dropped out and became a valuer and he's one of the few people I know who walked away from architecture. I mean, some walked away in the depression, but not many chose to forego architecture in mid career. BP 00:29:49 That would be correct. Phil was mostly involved in hospitals. He was a very opinionated man, if I may say so. DW 00:30:02 I didn't remember him. BP 00:30:02 You know, I knew him fairly well and in those days there weren't so many architects about and you tended to know all the other firms and the principals of them too, you'd lunch with them - I used to lunch with Lionel Philips quite often. So, you know, it was a smaller world. And, a much more intimate world and I think a happier world in the profession. It wasn't a dog eat dog profession in those days. In fact, if you got a job and you thought that somebody may have seen another architect, you'd ring him up and ask him and see if it was all right to do the work. That was the accepted thing. 00:30:48 We did a lot of work on the Gold Coast and we always - there was David Bell, Hayes and Scott and our firm, we were the main architects working on the Gold Coast and we generally, if somebody came to see us and they were suspect, especially a lot of the developers that came from the south, we'd generally ring around the others to see if these people had already been to see them and it was a - and, I think we all saved ourselves a lot of anguish by doing that. DW 00:31:21 What was David Bell like, seeing you mentioned him? BP 00:31:24 David Bell, not a popular man I don't think. I know his son who lives at Beaudesert, in fact, I don't know - in fact, I met him numerous times and when I see him on the street he doesn't recognise me. A strange fellow. I think a bit like his father was. I hope you excise some of this from cut, but that's a fair - my daughter's extremely involved in the horse world and she and Jane, that's Chris' wife are very associated with these various clubs and in the horse world very closely. So, she knows him and she's got the same opinion of him as I have. DW 00:32:08 What was the connection between David Bell and Bell Brothers, the furniture - - - BP 00:32:11 That was the parents. DW 00:32:12 The parents? Yes. They were furniture - - - BP 00:32:15 David Bell was a well known and competent architect. In fact - - - DW 00:32:20 Not too interesting, but were the buildings? BP 00:32:23 No. No. Not really, no. I think he worked on the Chevron Hotel and he did some of the apartment buildings on the coast, one of which I've, you know, when I acted as a consultant there and got called in to look, check it over and things like that. But - - - DW 00:32:40 I don't know whether that's a good time to talk about the apartments you people did, or maybe we should go back and do John Morton and Morris Hurst in a bit more detail first. Because, they would have been involved in the design of some of those wouldn't they, of the big apartments that Lund Hutton did? I'm thinking of Glen Falloch. BP 00:32:57 Yes. That I think was John Morton. I looked after all the documentation and everything like that on that. That's what they wanted me back from North Queensland to handle. Morris Hurst was mostly in housing. DW 00:33:12 Houses or? BP 00:33:13 Houses, yes. Houses, yes. DW 00:33:16 Do you remember those in particular, any? BP 00:33:19 There's one on the wall outside which I can't remember, because that was done after he left us. DW 00:33:26 Do you remember Nicholsons at Indooroopilly? The big one. BP 00:33:28 The name is familiar. DW 00:33:31 Or the Dean Bradleys, the one at Maroochydore; Alexandra Headland? BP 00:33:36 I only remember the names, I didn't get much involved with any of the housing like that. No, not. DW 00:33:41 Let's talk a bit about Morris and John. They weren't brought out from England by the firm; they were here already? BP 00:33:46 No. No. They came - John Morton was working - he came to us after he'd worked with , what was it - Bligh Jessup. Yes. And, I don't know for whom, I think Morris - I don't know if he came - who he worked for before he came to us. I don't know. DW 00:34:06 You mentioned someone before as a breath of fresh air, they would have been a breath of air in some way, were they? BP 00:34:14 Yes. DW 00:34:15 Immediately? BP 00:34:16 Their design, certainly - I was never a designer, I virtually never did any. I always said someone had to get their hands dirty and yes their design was better than what had happened before and in the time that they, you know, I think we won the completion for the Mt Isa Civic Centre , then we did the Mackay Civic Centre and we also did the Orange Civic Centre. I was involved in Mackay and also Orange. Orange - I'd left the firm at that time and they asked me to come back and go to Sydney to sort it all out, because it was being done in the Sydney office at the time. DW 00:35:06 Because John Morton had gone there. BP 00:35:07 That's correct yes. But, I can't remember him being in Sydney at that time. But, I went down a few times to sort out all the documents and get it - straighten it out, if I may say so. That tended to be my role. DW 00:35:22 Thankless but very useful role. BP 00:35:24 That and the administration of the office and making sure the contracts were okay. DW 00:35:35 With Morris Hurst, I mean, he did a series of houses that were kind of very interesting, in fact - - - BP 00:35:39 Yes. That's correct yes. I had - - - DW 00:35:40 Who did the blood bank, Queen Street? BP 00:35:46 The blood bank. DW 00:35:4800 Was that Morris, or? BP 00:35:50 No. John Morton, but Neville Lund looked after it mainly, I looked after all the documentation. DW 00:35:57 Yeah. I know you were involved in that Consultant's International, but what was the circumstances that led up to that? BP 00:36:04 The circumstances that led up to it, an engineer, Kuttner, came to see us from Sydney. He got out name through somebody or other, I can't remember at the time, and asked us - he put the proposition forward, this was when the first - about 1965, around about that time, '66, that the world was sort of becoming closer to everybody and there was a lot of work available for people as consultants to work throughout the world. 00:36:43 He put it to us and I was probably the principal one involved, and we set up a group ourselves, Coffey and Hollingsworth as soils engineers, Junshlin] and Pyke Surveyors [00:36:55] and cadastral surveyors and also Cardno and Davies as the civil and structural engineers and we set up a group, and also, Kuttner Collins and Bligh as mechanical and electrical engineers. Arthur Bligh, Bob Bligh, he came from Sydney and set up their office in Brisbane and it was set up at that stage, any firm that purported to do architecture had to have an architect as the chief, as the sort of, the chairman of directors. So, I draw the luck of the short straw and I acted as, sort of, chairman of directors of Consultant's International for some time. 00:37:42 We did some work overseas, not ourselves so much as some of the engineering side and the surveying side. It evolved after a little while, then it became such that we needed someone to manage the whole organisation and Morris Hurst switched over from us and took over as general manager of the whole business. DW 00:38:15 Was that a shame in a way, in terms of his architectural career? BP 00:38:19 Not really, I don't think so. I would think it probably helped him, in that he met a lot of people, he went on overseas trips and also he probably got to know the ins and outs of a bigger business, more so, because of that. It was not something that I would have wanted to have done myself. And, he was single and he could travel around. Whereas, I was married with children. DW 00:38:46 But, then when he chose to come back to architecture, he then did small stuff. BP 00:38:49 That's right. He went with Harris. I never met Harris, up in Noosa there, so, but the small housing was his forte. DW 00:39:00 But, I never thought the ones he did subsequently were as good as the ones he did with you people, with Lund Hutton. BP 00:39:05 Possible not. Because, I can't ever remember - even his house up at Sunshine Beach was just a house. DW 00:39:11 Yes, it wasn't nearly as good as the stuff of 20 years earlier. BP 00:39:14 That's correct, yes. That's right. DW 00:39:19 What's then - John Morton was up in Townsville and he's gone, not back to Brisbane but leaped frogged over to Sydney and set up a branch in Sydney. BP 00:39:30 Yeah, we went down and set up an office there for some while for Sydney. DW 00:39:35 Was that to do Lennons or, you had a big job to do Lennons - - - BP 00:39:37 No. No. We did Lennons in 1971 with Kevin, what's his name, Farrell - Kevin, no, no, no, Kevin - - - DW 00:39:49 An architect? BP 00:39:50 Yeah. An architect from Sydney. He was also a director of Federal Hotels and the reason we got it was the local director for Federal Hotels was Bill Edwards, the Chemist, very well know, and Neville Lund was his - Neville Lund's wife was Bill Edwards' wife's niece. So, it's a sort of a - - - DW 00:40:11 And, this is the Queensland Lawn Tennis Association? BP 00:40:13 That's correct. Yes. DW 00:40:14 And, you did the clubhouse for them at Milton? BP 00:40:15 That's right. That's how - because, that was the family relationship it was at, and that's how we got the hotel. DW 00:40:25 And, that was to be a very big hotel wasn't it? BP 00:40:26 It was about 31 or 32 storeys, something like that. DW 00:40:29 And, on the site of Hicks. BP 00:40:31 Old site of Hicks, yes. DW 00:40:32 Yeah, on the corner of Ann and George Street. BP 00:40:33 That's correct. DW 00:40:34 Where Comalco House is now. BP 00:40:35 That's right. Yes. DW 00:40:36 And what happened, why didn't it go ahead. BP 00:40:39 I don't think they could fund it. DW 00:40:42 Well, that's not a surprise with 31 storeys. BP 00:40:44 In those days. Yes. Yes. Yes. We did it in conjunction with this Kevin, this architect from Sydney, he used to send a fellow up to help out every so often who was an architect there. None of us like him very much. DW 00:41:00 Well that led to a funny stage didn't it, where Lennons had bought into that funny motel in Queens Street there. BP 00:41:05 That's right. Yes. That's right. Yes. DW 00:41:06 On the old council site. BP 00:41:08 What's it called, the Chifley or something isn't it? DW 00:41:10 Yeah. Something like that. Yes. Yes. That was so boring when it was announced. I don't know who did the original one, they did then that funny sort of expansion - - - BP 00:41:17 I don't know. I had nothing to do with it, I'd gone by that time. DW 00:41:21 Yeah. It wasn't part of - your firm weren't involved in it at all. BP 00:41:23 No we weren't involved in that at all. DW 00:41:27 Anyway, so, was Moreton in Sydney or back in Brisbane by then? BP 00:41:32 No, he was still in Townsville I think at that stage. I think he was still in Townsville, possibly. No, he'd gone to Sydney I think at that time already, I'm a bit hazy at the moment. DW 00:41:48 Yeah. When did you get out of the firm? Because, you came back to the firm later didn't you? BP 00:41:55 Well yes. I became so interested in breeding cattle, farming, that I decided that if I left it too long I'd be too old, so I decided to retire and also, as you explained before, one of the other reasons was because of a certain person. And, so, I retired from the practice and took up my rural pursuits. But, subsequent to that, I got invited back every so often as like a specialist consultant. The specialist consultant - the ones I worked on as a specialist consultant were the Orange Civic Centre, what else was there? And, also, you know the mistake - - - - DW 00:42:42 The government precinct. BP 00:42:43 They did the first design of the government precinct which was not built on that site for they started to build the other one. And, I got brought back to write all the specifications and keep an eye on all the documentation for some time. DW 00:43:00 Did you see much of the players that were involved in all of that manoeuvring, you know the Skidmore Owings and Merrill? BP 00:43:05 Yes, and I have no - and I have mentioned this in - this is mentioned actually in that architecture, you know, from the Sydney people, the Melbourne people who wrote it and I said, "They - Skidmore Owings and Merrill in my opinion, provided no greater input than we could have done." I was very, very disappointed, they sent out one of their partners and two other fellows, as designers, and in my opinion they provided no input really that was of any use. DW 00:43:40 I'm going to turn out to be the one who had written the article that you take so much offence. We've done quite a lot of work on that and - - - BP 00:43:48 I was very disappointed in them. DW 00:43:53 Because you were already doing work of that kind or? BP 00:43:56 No. John Morton I must say, he was equal to the task, equal as they were to the task. DW 00:44:06 But, they did still produce a lot of the documents in Chicago, but, maybe with the Queenslanders working there - well, the original sketch plans in '73, the first design that was done. Remember, it was a long time before it went ahead finally and they didn't have much to do, or anything to do with it maybe by then. BP 00:44:22 Second - the second one, as far as I know, and my involvement was that everything was produced here. DW 00:44:30 Yes, when it finally went ahead it certainly was. Yes, nothing - - - BP 00:44:33 Even the original sketch plans were done in the office. They were doing sketches - - DW 00:44:36 No. BP 00:44:37 - - - out at Toowong. I was there. DW 00:44:41 But, well, what about the model, the model and the perspectives and things all came from Chicago, I've spoken to the person who drew them. BP 00:44:48 I can't comment on that because I'd gone by that time, I'd done all my task of writing the docs, specifications and so forth, whether this was all produced after - - - DW 00:44:58 But this was a long time before anything got build. You know, the original design goes back to '73 or something. BP 00:45:05 That's right, that was when I was involved. DW 00:45:06 And then eighty - but weren't you involved in when it finally went ahead? BP 00:45:09 No. No. I wasn't involved in the final one at all - - - DW 00:45:10 Okay. BP 00:45:11 - - - only the first one, and, as far as I know all the design was done here. They sent out the - - - DW 00:45:18 Well, Walton Edge came out from Chicago - - - BP 00:45:19 That's his name. DW 00:45:21 And, there were two other people, I forgot their name at the moment. BP 00:45:22 Two - young architects. DW 00:45:24 Yes. Yes. One of those is still alive. BP 00:45:28 Well. DW 00:45:30 But that's architecture. BP 00:45:32 My opinion of a lot of Americans is very low, in the profession, and as builders. Because, when we were in Townsville, I looked after the practically rebuilding of Mt Isa and we employed Utah Constructions and we subsequently sacked them for incompetence. They were one of the biggest construction companies in the world. They were the most incompetent people I've ever dealt with in my life. 00:45:57 And, then we dealt with one of the other big companies in Sydney, American companies, well, I wasn't involved but I heard a lot about it and they weren't very competent either. So, my - - - DW 00:46:09 What about the Works Department people, did you have much to do with any of those. Raymond Pavlyshyn and - - - BP 00:46:14 Roman, yes, I liked Raymond and Alf Camells [00:46:16]. DW 00:46:17 Yes. Tell me about Alf? BP 00:46:19 A gentleman. A gentle - - - DW 00:46:20 Was he? Did he do anything useful? BP 00:46:22 I don't know. We had dealings with him when he was - wasn't he a chief architect for a while. DW 00:46:29 Yeah. He rose up high. Yes. BP 00:46:31 But he was a gentle man and a gentleman. Put the two - you see what I'm meaning? DW 00:46:36 Yes. Yes. BP 00:46:37 Yes. A quiet fellow. And, Roman Pabluchon I had a lot of time for him, he was a very competent man in my opinion. DW 00:46:43 Yes. I think so. I think he was very good and a good designer - - - BP 00:46:47 That's correct. DW 00:46:47 - - - in their early career. BP 00:46:48 He was a Ukrainian wasn't he? DW 00:46:50 Yes. That's right. BP 00:46:51 And Alf, as far as I know was a Latvian. DW 00:46:55 Alf's still alive, but he doesn't want to talk about any of these things. BP 00:46:58 Alf's still alive is he? DW 00:47:00 Or was, six or eight months ago. BP 00:47:02 But he'd be a little bit older than I am, I would think. DW 00:47:05 Yes. I don't think he's in such good nick, as you. BP 00:47:10 Well, I suppose I've led an active life farming and grazing as well as architecture, haven't I? So. DW 00:47:17 Yeah. BP 00:47:19 So, you know, in Townsville we did a tremendous amount of work, right through North Queensland, tremendous amount of work. DW 00:47:25 What was the work at Mt Isa. Could you just talk a little bit about that? BP 00:47:28 Yes. We, in those days, it was the first time Mt Isa was starting to make a profit, the mines, and one of the things - one of the projects was three hundred houses in one group. We did all the executive houses for the managers, the chairman and so forth, we did the mining office buildings and then we did - off shoots for this we did work for banks out there, we did work for the churches and so forth. So, it was a very big project for m. DW 00:48:03 And, you were overseeing the office at that time. BP 00:48:05 That's correct. DW 00:48:06 Who was designing all the work in Mt Isa; were you involved in that too? BP 00:48:10 Ian Black did - - - DW 00:48:11 Ian? BP 00:48:11 Ian Black did some of it, yes. But, I was mostly running around and doing a lot of it because it was just the start of the tumour on the brain when he was starting to just not get quite with it at the time, which was a great pity. DW 00:48:25 Yeah. BP 00:48:25 And, we didn't know, it happened so slowly. This is one of the things, no one could pick up on, what was wrong with him, a great pity. DW 00:48:33 But, then you drop out, you retire rather and do other things. BP 00:48:37 Yes, I retired in '72 and then went on my property, breeding cattle, and on and off I went back, you know, as a specialist consultant to the firm, and I sold that property, then I bought another one and I was irrigation farming for about two or three years, as well - - - DW 00:48:57 And, you found that all came easily. You told us before we started how you got interested in the land. BP 00:49:04 Yes, that's right. DW 00:49:06 Yes, I can repeat it, because I did a great amount of work in the country areas, North Queensland, West Queensland, Maranoa, down into New South Wales, and I enjoyed the life, I enjoyed the people I was dealing with, and in some respects I enjoyed the freedom it gave to me as an architect. Not that I did design, but I was looking after a lot of work and your were living, shall we say, close to the soil, and you were living closer to buildings than the person that's living in the city. You were very close. 00:49:42 And, I think you learnt a lot about human nature, you learnt a lot about - the builders, we were closer to them and I think this is what's - and you were dealing often with - you were dealing generally with builders who were, shall we say, honest, rather than like a lot of developers who were - you know, like today. I'm probably the last architect that can remember dealing with the original, actual master builders in Brisbane. Stan Carrick was one and Sannum [00:50:16] was another, Hector Hiven [00:50:19] was another, they were about the three of the last master builders that employed, basically, all their trades, except the electrician was one or two, and they were gentleman. They were done without, you know, a hand shake. To give you an indication, with Addison and MacDonald they did a lot of work with these builders. They had been in practice since 1928 and when I was there in 1946, I started there in '46 with them, they had one filing cabinet half filled. That was their whole filing system. It had all been done basically on a hand shake. 00:50:54 Their motto was that they always handed back the contingency sum to the client at the end of a job. DW 00:51:02 Gee, that's a good bonus. BP 00:51:02 That was a bonus, and it was probably right, but it was done on a hand shake and if there was something to be done they said, the builder said, it's not quite right here, it will cost money to fix it up, they said, well what can we do? Well, if we do this it will balance against that, there'll be no change, no charge. And, that was how they did their work. And, it was a wonderful method of theirs. Not like now days that you spend your whole life keeping records so that you can't be - - - DW 00:51:36 For defence. BP 00:51:38 Can't be litigated against. DW 00:51:40 Just going back to that evolution of master builders, the electrical trad would have been - that was a new trade because electricity came in early so - - - BP 00:51:50 That's correct yes. DW 00:51:51 So, mechanical services, all that would be a separate trade. BP 00:51:54 That's correct. DW 00:51:55 And that drainage, did they employ their own drainers? BP 00:51:57 Generally, yes. A lot of them did it - Carrick certainly did I know. I don't think Hector Hiven did, I think he employed Wiley & Sons in those days, to do a lot of his work. DW 00:52:09 Because Brisbane didn't have much in the way of drainage until fairly late. BP 00:52:12 Didn't have much sewerage either. DW 00:52:13 No. No sewerage. Almost. BP 00:52:17 So, it was an - I'd been through an interesting period of evolution within the profession. From a day like this to now where it's highly computerised and highly - technology has almost taken over. DW 00:52:38 Yes. Yes. Because you'd have done all your drawings, of course, manually. BP 00:52:41 All manually. DW 00:52:42 Coloured prints. BP 00:52:43 That's right. DW 00:52:44 Did you do prints and have to colour them? BP 00:52:42 Coloured prints. DW 00:52:45 All hand colour them? BP 00:52:46 That was one of my big tasks when I worked for the State Works Department. DW 00:52:50 Did you do the prints and the colouring? BP 00:52:51 Did the prints and then you did the colouring and you had to colour six sets of working drawings, and you had a set standard colour for all the different types of material. Elevation, section, plan and so forth and you had to mirror those. 00:53:05 And, sometimes you'd spend weeks colouring a set of drawings for a relatively large job. DW 00:53:10 How did you do the prints, how were they made? BP 00:53:14 The State Government had a printing office. DW 00:53:15 It was a machine? BP 00:53:16 Over in the Executive Office. DW 00:53:19 The Lands Administration office. BP 00:53:20 The Lands Administration building there and you took them up there to the printing and they did blue prints or dye ones. DW 00:53:26 Yeah. They'd given up solar prints by then? BP 00:53:28 No, actually, some of the blue prints were - they did use some - - - DW 00:53:34 Exposed on the roof. BP 00:53:35 Exposed under the sun on the roof. You know more about this than I Don. DW 00:53:41 Do you remember the plan keeper? BP 00:53:44 Yeah. Len Furness. DW 00:53:46 Do you remember any stories about him? BP 00:53:47 Yes. He was the staunchest Labour Party supporter probably I've ever met. But, also, he used to go away with the rugby league teams as their rubber. In other words, the server. And, he was as rough as bags but a nice fellow. DW 00:54:08 If you got an injury at work he'd give you a rub down. BP 00:54:11 No, I can't say that. No. There weren't any girls working in the office, only one in those days, Dolly Brenner. DW 00:54:18 Tell us about her? BP 00:54:19 Nice lady. She was a reserved lady. She was a lady. She was very prim and proper but a very nice lady. JG 00:54:30 What was her name again? BP 00:54:29 Dolly Brenner. DW 00:54:31 Dorothy Brenner. BP 00:54:32 Dorothy Brenner. DW 00:54:33 Yeah. What was she doing in the office do you know? BP 00:54:36 Just as an architect, working just as a normal architect. I think she went to the Girls Grammar School didn't she? DW 00:54:41 Before perhaps, yeah. BP 00:54:42 Yes. I'm pretty certain she did. JG 00:54:45 And, she was one of the first women? BP 00:54:47 She was one of the first women architects. Yes. She was a nice lady. JG 00:54:50 And the other - the men working at the State Department, they were okay with that? BP 00:54:54 Yes. Yes. Everyone was very nice. They were old older men see, in those days, a lot of the younger men and - there was only a couple of younger fellows there at the time and quite a few of them were first world war veterans and they - everyone treated he properly. There was no impropriety in the office at all, everyone behaved and acted, quite frankly, like gentlemen. Right from the top, right down. So, it was - - - DW 00:55:26 Was David Mercer there when you were there? BP 00:55:28 No, David came long afterwards. He came afterwards. I worked alongside Colin Tannett. DW 00:55:36 Oh, yes. Tell me about him? BP 00:55:38 He was an early medallist. He was a scholarship. He won for primary school, the top Queensland at the time. And, he was a very competent man, in that he can turn his hands to doing anything, modelling, carpentry, metalwork, anything, very interesting. DW 00:56:00 And, I know he later went into partnership with Des Searle. BP 00:56:03 That's right. Des. Yes, that's right. DW 00:56:06 What do you know about Des Searle? BP 00:56:08 I knew Des quite well. Des was of course, I think he ended up - he was a returned serviceman and I think he ended up as a Major General didn't he, in the CMF? DW 00:56:19 Yeah. I think he was very senior, yes. BP 00:56:20 Very senior, yes. I knew him quite well and my wife knew his wife quite well. Then, strangely enough we both bred Droughtmaster cattle together. So, he had a small farm, I think Upper Brookfield or somewhere, and we were elsewhere and we got to know each other very well. In fact, I think I might even have a photograph of him here somewhere. I don't know whether I - - - DW 00:56:42 He renovated my parent's house. JG 00:56:43 Did her? Okay. DW 00:56:45 Sorry, Searl and Tannett, I don't know who did it. BP 00:56:47 Yeah, I don't know whether it's here, but, whether I've got a photograph of Des Searle here, I may not have thought it was necessary to bring. DW 00:56:59 What happened to them in the end, did one of them go back to the Works Department? BP 00:57:03 I don't know. I don't know. Tennant died, he died at a fairly young age. DW 00:57:09 Did he? BP 00:57:10 He didn't die very - he wasn't, and Des, he died some time, I don't know. He went into partnership with another fellow. What's his name? I've forgotten his name now, they were in partnership after Searl and Tannett I think. And, he was an ex army officer too, and he ended up I think as a Brigadier in the CMF. Something like that. DW 00:57:37 After you'd been on the land for a while, you end up at the Gold Coast and you start doing - or in parallel - - - BP 00:57:42 Well in summary, well, it's a story of a - my daughter, both daughters were at school, the Girls Grammar School, and my wife, who was an only child, her mother was not a well woman, so we came back - sold up and came back to Brisbane - and, for a year or so I sort of pottered around, doing an occasional job for people that wanted, you know, who could think of no one else better to do it, and then I thought I'd have to do something and I saw an advertisement in the paper wanting someone to co-manage a project on the Gold Coast. 00:58:23 I rang up and it turned out to be Pat Moroney, so he appointed me as sort of his, co- manager for the development of the Paradise Centre on the Gold Coast. And, it was done in conjunction with Silver Goldberg from Perth. And, they sent over a Max Hamilton and we co-managed the project. When, more or less, it finished I wasn't needed for a little while then they asked me to come back and I went back, basically as a consultant for quite some years on all their major work that they had down there. And, I was there for a long time, until I got to the stage where I thought I was getting too old and it was about time I let the younger people do something. So, I returned. Even though they asked me on a few occasions to come back, I'd closed the door and I said I'm not opening it again. 00:59:24 So, once I retired I retired. DW 00:59:28 Well, can you talk a little bit about the Paradise Centre and about Pat Maroney? I mean, Pat's still around, I've - - - BP 00:59:33 Is he? DW 00:59:32 Not working as an architect, I think he still works as a sculptor. But, that was a very big job for him to get. BP 00:59:41 It was, he had very little, he had something to do with it. But, I suppose it all ended up devolving on Max and myself. He - I'd rather not say much about him. If I may say so. I'd rather not. Silver Goldberg, from Western Australia, I knew them very well. DW 01:00:01 They were quite keen. I ran public talks for a long time and they were one of the firms that would drive up from the Gold Coast to attend them. Some young guys from that firm, I forget their names. BP 01:00:10 I like Silver, what's his name? Yossi Goldberg and Dennis Silver. Yeah. They were very nice fellows, both of them were quite good architects too. DW 01:00:26 How did they get the job? BP 01:00:27 Because of Mr Kornhauser they were all Jewish and I stayed there and co-managed it with Stage 1 and then Stage 2 and I was involved basically in all the documentation and seeing it was done and then co-ordinating a lot of work with the contractors, who were good to deal with, exceptionally good to deal with. 01:00:57 And, Kornhauser [01:00:30], he was a very hard man, a very hard tough man, he paid a good fee and his word was his bond. Much - this is against what a lot of people say about him, but I found him a good man to deal with. So much so, that when he died, I got a personal invitation to his memorial service, which I was - I've still got it somewhere. I kept the - - - DW 01:01:29 This was right in the middle of Surfers Paradise and it had the difficult architectural position of replacing an icon. BP 01:01:37 That's right. But, it was interesting and it was a very interesting job in many ways. It was my first, shall we say, involvement with a project manager, which, quite frankly, was less than, shall we say, happy. DW 01:02:00 Well, with you there they wouldn't have need a project manager, you'd have run a very tight ship for the project. BP 01:02:05 I could have run it myself. DW 01:02:07 That's right. BP 01:02:08 I could have run it myself. But, no, but they had to have a project manager and the project managers in those days were dreadful. JG 01:02:16 Which project did it replace? DW 01:02:18 It was the Surfer's Paradise Hotel. BP 01:02:20 It's a highly - - - DW 01:02:21 An Eric Trewern hotel. BP 01:02:24 Trewern. That's right, I did all the documents for its demolition. DW 01:02:27 Did you? BP 01:02:27 Yes. DW 01:02:29 It was a very famous site and - - - BP 01:02:30 That's right. Yes. DW 01:02:32 And, architecturally the Paradise Centre was a bit of a disappointment in a way, then it - - - BP 01:02:36 Structurally, architecturally it is a disappointment. DW 01:02:39 In that it didn't match - - - BP 01:02:40 We weren't the masters of our own destiny. A lot of that was forced on us by the project manager, who was a retired army officer/engineer. And, it was a pity a lot of it ended up as it was because it could have been a much better job than it was. DW 01:03:02 What about the other people that worked on the Coast at that time, I mean, what's interesting about the Coast? BP 01:03:07 Burling and Brown were there. They were a nice crew. DW 01:03:09 Where they, Ron - - - BP 01:03:10 Ron Burling. DW 01:03:12 Darrell Brown was in my ear. BP 01:03:14 Yeah. Ron Burling, I always told him I gave him his chance in life. Because he applied for a job with us once and I didn't give it to him I gave it to Barry Barnes. And, he didn't - instead of going with us he went down to the Gold Coast and never looked back. So, I always said to Ron, "I gave you your chance in life." DW 01:03:38 Well, talk about Barnes, because he's another well know Coast architect that did a bit of work on the Coast. BP 01:03:42 Yeah. I didn't see Barry after he left us. I never saw him. DW 01:03:46 Yes, because he's Douglas and Barnes. BP 01:03:47 Douglas and Barnes, yes. DW 01:03:49 Yes. Who did the Church at Southport and things. BP 01:03:50 That's right. That's right. Yes. They did a bit of Church work. I didn't see him much at all. Because, I didn't live on the Coast so, I used to only go down one day, so it wasn't as if I was intimately involved in the Coast scene. DW 01:04:04 Yeah. What about Davis Heather, or Bill Heather? BP 01:04:08 Yes, Bill Heather, yes. DW 01:04:09 Buchan and all those people? BP 01:04:12 No, I didn't much know - nothing to do with Buchan. But, Bill Heather I knew quite well. And, of Thiedeke. That's right. Yes. That's right. DW 01:04:21 Were there any particular buildings on the Coast you liked, or that were regarded more highly, at the Gold Coast at this time? BP 01:04:27 Any architects? DW 01:04:27 Building, no, no buildings or? Did Silver Goldberg do other work apart from the Paradise Centre? BP 01:04:40 We did some old people's homes, we did lots of odds and ends. We did a great amount of - a lot of work for Ansett. We did the fit outs for Ansett and we did the fit out for the Brisbane Airport. We did Ansett fit out there, we did other work, and the firm eventually got into McDonald's work. So, we did McDonald's work from the Northern Territory down into New South Wales and all over Queensland. DW 01:05:11 Was that a standard American design or, that came? BP 01:05:13 It was yes, and you had to adjust it a bit to suit. But, you know, it was the bread and butter. It kept part of the office going all the time. And, they were good to deal with, they were good to deal with. Again, you got a reasonable fee, provided you provided the service you got paid properly. And, they were nice people to deal with. DW 01:05:35 Did the Ansett work lead to the Tamworth? BP 01:05:37 That's correct, yes. DW 01:05:39 What's the Tamworth building called, the big one that you did? BP 01:05:40 It was the Tamworth Flying College, but its now the Australian Air Academy. DW 01:05:44 And, did you do that in your own right or ? BP 01:05:46 Yes, we did it in our own right. DW 01:05:48 With Silver, with - - - BP 01:05:49 It was done with Hamilton Hayes and Henderson. DW 01:05:51 Hamilton Hayes and Henderson, oh okay. BP 01:05:52 Yes. It was done I think 1990 and we finished the documentation at the end of 1990. We started building it in 1991 and it went for about two years or something and then we had another year trying to untangle the mess that this builder tried to get us into. DW 01:06:100 Who were the other partners in - Hamilton came from Silver Goldberg - - - BP 01:06:14 That's right. DW 01:06:15 What about - - - BP 01:06:16 And, Hayes - Alan Hayes, he came and applied for a position when we advertised one and Loch Henderson also applied. DW 01:06:26 Are they local boys? BP 01:06:27 They're Brisbane. Loch came from Toowoomba. But, in those days I interviewed everyone and appointed them, so I gave them their chance in life. And, then I ended up sort of being, under them, which was - you know, it was a, shall we say, it wasn't sort of a master and servant relationship, it was a very close, shall we say, relationship on equal level, because I used to advise them on quite a lot, whether I was always right, I'm not sure, but anyway. Max Hamilton eventually - he had, basically had a mental breakdown and they, like the other partners asked him to leave, and he died the year before last. He got cancer of the stomach or something and died. I saw him a short while before he died, a shadow of his former self. But, Max and I were really close and it was a great pity unfortunately, his lifestyle was against him. Does that say it all? DW 01:07:40 Yeah. Yeah. You've done a few trips overseas at various times. You did one to London, what did you go and look at when you were in London? Did you look at - - - BP 01:07:49 Well I worked there, I worked for Verner Rees, I sort of worked there and then I travelled round as much of Europe as you could in those days, because it was shortly after the war and travel was not easy, not easy to all the countries that were verboten, you were not allowed to travel to and I took the opportunity to go to Norway to see my relations and - - - DW 01:08:12 Where did they live, in Oslo? BP 01:08:14 No, no, my - on my father's side, they lived in a place called Skien and my mother's side which, I wasn't much involved with, they lived in Oslo. So, my brother has subsequently kept, he married a Norwegian girl, he subsequently has kept in touch with our relations more so than myself. DW 01:08:42 Did he marry a Norwegian girl in Norway or here? BP 01:08:44 No, married her in New York, of all places. DW 01:08:48 This is Harold? BP 01:08:49 That's right. That's right. DW 01:08:51 Was he working in New York? BP 01:08:52 No. No. He worked in England for a while and then he worked for two years in Norway, two or three years, and he worked for Odd Nansen who was Fridtjof, the great architect explorer's son, who was an architect. He worked for him for a couple of years and he subsequently went over to, I think went to Canada for a year or two and then he eventually met his wife in New York and they got married, so that's how it happened. DW 01:09:22 And, then he came back here and worked for the Commonwealth? BP 01:09:25 No, he came back here and he worked for - who'd he work for - he worked for us for a while he worked at our Brisbane office and he worked then in the Townsville office for a while, came back and then went back and worked for Peter Driver, because he'd worked for Peter Driver beforehand. And, subsequently after, I think when Peter closed his office, he then went to work for the Commonwealth for the rest of his life. DW 01:09:53 What was his forte'? BP 01:09:58 I suppose, he did a little bit of design, but again documents and administration. Yes. I suppose it was what, somebody had to do it. And, not everyone - everyone wanted to be a master designer and there are very few master designers in the profession, very, very, few. But, everyone thinks they are. DW 01:10:23 But, you were very talented at the production side and the specification and the organisational side. BP 01:10:27 Well, I did that and I lectured in architectural specifications after Bruce Lucas retired from here, I lectured for about five or six years out here and I changed the whole method of specification writing. DW 01:10:43 You were very good I know. I do - - - BP 01:10:46 You would remember that Don wouldn't you? DW 01:10:47 I certainly do. BP 01:10:49 And, I put you down as one of the two best students I ever had. DW 01:10:54 How bizarre. BP 01:10:57 You and Spencer Jamieson. DW 01:10:58 Okay. Yes. BP 01:10:59 You were the two best students that I ever lectured in specifications, Don and Spencer Jamieson. DW 01:11:06 Well, Spencer Jamieson worked for you for a long time. I worked - before I started, and then I went up to Townsville and worked up there. BP 01:11:12 Did you work up there? DW 01:11:13 But then, in my first year, just for the Christmas holidays. BP 01:11:16 I can't remember these things. DW 01:11:17 No. No. I'm not sure you were there, you might have been back in Brisbane, you were back in Brisbane by then. John Morton was there. BP 01:11:21 Yeah. That's right. DW 01:11:22 But, he was up there with Andy Stenders and - - - BP 01:11:25 Andy Stenders, that's right - - - DW 01:11:26 And, they were all having a good time, I was ignored completely. BP 01:11:28 Is that a--- DW 01:11:29 I just sat in the back of the office colouring in, or something, it wasn't a great holiday, or work experience, but it was all right. BP 01:11:37 That's right. Yes. So, we had, you know, Spence worked for us for quite a while, he was a good designer, a very careful competent designer, yes. And - - - DW 01:11:46 Well, he did some of that work that they alterate when the hotel fell over, the Lennon, he did some alterations to the original didn't he, he worked on some of that work I think for you people. BP 01:11:53 I can't - - - DW 01:11:55 Did new bars and things that were fancy. BP 01:11:58 I know he did work on some Church and an old people's home for the Church. The reorganised Church of Latter Day Saints, somewhere out at Wilston or somewhere there. Yes. DW 01:12:12 Had you don those earlier ones for the Church? There are some big wide gables, glazed gable Churches with - - - BP 01:12:20 We did a lot of Church work all over the place. We got that work out there for the reorganised Church because Dolph Pemberton, he became - he joined us and when John Morton went south to Sydney, we got Bob Clayton and Dolph Pemberton went up and looked after the office there for a while. DW 01:12:44 Up in Townsville? BP 01:12:44 In Townsville, yes. DW 01:12:47 How do you spell Dolph? BP 01:12:48 It was Adolphus Pemberton. DW 01:12:53 And, was he related to Reg Pemberton in the Works Department? BP 01:12:56 Not to my knowledge, no,no. DW 01:12:58 No. Okay. Reg gave me a job. BP 01:13:01 Did he? DW 01:13:01 I ended up at the Works Department. BP 01:13:03 Reg Pemberton, he's mentioned in that book somewhere. DW 01:13:05 Yeah he would be. BP 01:13:06 That's right. Yes. He was a good draftsman. DW 01:13:09 Was he? BP 01:13:10 Yes. Yes. DW 01:13:11 He was long past drawing when I knew him. BP 01:13:13 Was he? DW 01:13:15 Yeah. Do you want to talk about that specification system that you were very keen about. Seemed very well organised. BP 01:13:24 Yes. I will mention it. I became interested in writing specifications and I felt specifications were written basically on the English style and most specifications in England, from what I remember in those days, were written by the quantity surveyor, not by the architect. And, they were geared that way and I felt, I know Neville Lund and I felt there must be better ways to do it than this. And, I became like - I saw some publications for the Construction Specifications Institute of America and I wrote away for a lot of their documents and I became a contributor really - not a contributor, they contributed a lot of information to me and I decided to change the whole writing and specifications around into their system, which was completely different to what had been happening before. 01:14:23 I suppose when I lectured it was a sort of an embryo and once after a few years of more and more experience, in the latter years when I was acting as a consultant on the Coast, I was writing quite major specifications in this way, and fortunately, not getting into trouble. And, they were much more precise, as you probably remember than the old method, which was cursive almost. It was all embracing and you had, you know, painting was, paint all those parts normally painted. That was about the specification for painting. And, as you see, when I did - - - DW 01:15:09 Forget the cover strip. BP 01:15:11 - - - the beading round there, that's how detailed you had to get otherwise these smartarse, oh sorry, builders would take you to the cleaners, they really would, they'd take you for every minor thing and some companies, I know we employed people to go through the documents once they'd got a contract, literally, to find all the faults and put in huge claims for extensions of time - - - DW 01:15:39 Before you've even started the job. BP 01:15:39 - - - with variations before they'd started. The assistant Beaudesert Shire Engineer took the job for peace and quiet because he'd worked for one major - some company - and he had a nervous breakdown because of what they tried to do to him, contractors, with - tried to, you know, legally beat the system and put it bluntly. And, you had to be as careful as that and I used to be appalled at younger architects. "Oh, it's near enough," you know, they didn't even have the right title of the client some time, the proprietor, and I said, if you go to a Court, you'll be crucified. And they're, "Oh, no, it's near enough," I said, "It can't be near enough," and this is what I found so many of the younger architects were coming out with that attitude. It's appalling, whether it's still the same I don't know. DW 01:16:40 There are some and they're others - - - BP 01:16:43 Well, it's the school of hard knocks isn't it? DW 01:16:44 Yeah. Yeah. When you went to Europe, you said it was hard to move around, what sort of buildings did you look at? Did you look at historical buildings? BP 01:16:57 Well, there weren't - more historical buildings. I did go to see the Corbusier's buildings in Paris and I did go to see the one he did in the Marseille and it was only - I went there when it was not completed and I went - I sort of - and I can still remember I went there in a violent thunder storm and it was wet as anything, and you know, you're scrambling around over where they were still building. It was called the City of Light, but the design was such that the building - each unit was so deep that you had to have your lights on all do to even get some - see where you were, and it was quite an eye opener. 01:17:38 But, of course in those days, you went and had a look at a lot of the historical buildings. And, that was - I think it's of great benefit to see some of these great buildings and - - - DW 01:17:49 You did well in history in the course, you got honours all the time, in your results. BP 01:17:56 Did I. I can't remember. I liked history of architecture and we had an enthusiastic instructor, it was Charlie Fulton who had travelled. DW 01:18:06 A lot before the war. BP 01:18:07 Before the was, that was of great benefit for somebody to see them and he imbued me with a spirit of going to see these great buildings. JG 01:18:16 But then, he talked on historical architecture but he didn't go into the contemporary side, Le Corbusier was the most well know for the architectural record when you looked at that or how did you know about Le Corbusier, were there other international architects that you knew about at the time and how did you find out about them? BP 01:18:38 Well I suppose in the magazines you saw the names of the architects that were in England before the war. Mendelsohn and Chermayeff from places like that and then - but, it was very hard to travel around Europe in those years. It was very hard and you didn't have the mobility you would have now, with public transport more with say with motor transport, travel with your own car. So, you didn't see so much. DW 01:19:07 Was there conversation in the English firms you were working in? What sort of work were you doing there and were people there talking about new work? BP 01:19:15 To some extent. With Verner Rees a lot of it was - some of it was at the Birmingham University and we did - I did work on the Sir John Cass School of Science in the East End of London, which had been bombed out and was being rebuilt, which was quite an interesting job and there were, you know, other minor work because there was not a great amount of major work going on. 01:19:38 I didn't work for any firm that did - I worked for - sorry, I worked for another architect, I've forgotten his name now, for a while. And, I worked there with a Walter Gerome, a Melbourne architect. He was a very good architect, I worked with him and I worked there for about five or six months. But, he again was doing work, mainly for rebuilding and refurbishing work that had been bomb damaged and so forth. And, I suppose at that period, there were only - I was the third Queensland architect to go out to Europe after the war. Frank Tony was one and Arthur Fahey [01:19:38] was the other. We were all in the same digs together. DW 01:20:32 In London? Okay. BP 01:20:33 Yes. So, we knew each other well and I kept up the friendship with them for many, many years. DW 01:20:40 What did Tony do later? BP 01:20:42 He went, Frank Tony, he worked for Frank Cullen remember, he worked for Frank Cullen and then he went down and worked in Sydney and I think he worked in partnership with somebody there for quite a while, but I lost track of them then, of course Arthur went with Cullen, Fagg, Mooney and Cullen, whatever - - - DW 01:21:03 There were a lot of partners. BP 01:21:09 So, this is all jumping from one place to another. DW 01:21:18 I know, I'm jumping around all over the ship. Were your English colleagues in the offices friendly and sociable or did they regard you as a colonial? BP 01:21:21 They regarded me as a colonial. DW 01:21:22 Yeah, that persisted a long time. BP 01:21:23 This is right. There was good architects and there were poor architects. They didn't work hard. My introduction to an English office was by the office spokesman, Peter Hogman, the names I remember, I'm full of useless information. Know what his opening words when I was introduced round the office were, "Say Oz, we don't work hard here and we don't expect you to either." DW 01:21:45 Oh dear. g 01:21:45 And, I've never forgotten those opening words and Walter Gerome and I found out that that was correct. DW 01:21:55 Australians would have done well, mostly because they worked harder than them. BP 01:21:57 We had no problems getting a job in those days. I went over to overseas without a portfolio or any indication of what on earth I'd done, they asked to see my portfolio, I said, "What's that?" because, in here everyone knew everybody and you knew. So, there was no need to go, they knew your capabilities before you went. DW 01:22:21 Did you join the institute early? BP 01:22:22 I jointed the institute as soon as I finished, I finished 1949, and I became a member of the institute straight away and I've got my architectural number, my number was 330. So, there weren't too many before me. And, then I became a fellow, when was that? I don't know - 1970 I became a fellow. I have - these are old - Diploma in Architecture, there we are. DW 01:22:58 Do you have any dealings with people like JVD Coutts who put out that Architecture and Building Journal of Queensland, that had petered out after the war? BP 01:23:08 No. No. DW 01:23:10 Who were the big shots in the institute in the late 40s? BP 01:23:16 Charlie Fulham, Bruce Lucas, Bob Cummings, I think - who else - there's Godfrey Blackburn, but I don't think he was mixed up with the institute was he? DW 01:23:31 No. No. BP 01:23:32 I don't think so. DW 01:23:33 Did you go to any institute conferences or ? BP 01:23:36 Yes, I went to one in Adelaide about, was '60 or '61? DW 01:23:42 I don't remember the date but I know one was Adelaide. BP 01:23:42 Round about that time, I went to the Adelaide one there. Yes. DW 01:23:46 Who was the main speaker; was that Gropius or? BP 01:23:48 No. No. I don't think they had any main speaker in those days. They had local architects, mostly Australian architects were speaking, as far as I remember. DW 01:23:58 Is that the one where they built quite an elaborate installation in the park or was it an exhibition or something - - - - BP 01:24:03 No. There was nothing like that. No, nothing like that all. When the institute had their convention up here they had a series of excerpts- sort of exhibits in the City Hall. Yes. DW 01:24:19 Did you contribute to that exhibition, Lund Hutton? BP 01:24:22 We did. DW 01:24:23 What with? BP 01:24:24 Very minor. I take no... I take no great pride in any of that. DW 01:24:40 That's the tech college there. BP 01:24:42 Whether you have ever seen any of these I don't - - - DW 01:24:44 What are you going to do with them? BP 01:24:47 They've been rolled up in this cupboard, as you can see, for a long time. DW 01:24:51 You should give them to Fryer in the end, and add them to the collection. BP 01:24:55 When I die. DW 01:24:56 Unless your kids want them. BP 01:24:59 I leave them to her in my Will. I've even got my junior and senior public certificates. I didn't even know what was in the roll, then the exam - - - DW 01:25:09 Did you do as well at school as you did in architecture? BP 01:25:12 I survived. DW 01:25:13 But you weren't a Lilley Medal? BP 01:25:15 No. No. DW 01:25:16 Not like her? BP 01:25:16 No. No, not at all. DW 01:25:18 Someone's done a PhD Thesis on all those people. BP 01:25:21 Have they? DW 01:25:22 The medalists. BP 01:25:23 Is that so. DW 01:25:23 I must have a look and say what they say about you. BP 01:25:27 What on architects? DW 01:25:28 No. They did it on all the people won Lilley medals. BP 01:25:31 My niece won a Lilley medal. DW 01:25:32 Well, she'll be in it. BP 01:25:33 Yes. DW 01:25:34 I forget the name of the women, she goes straight for - - BP 01:25:37 She died very young. Left four little kids. DW 01:25:41 That's sad. BP 01:25:42 Breast cancer. So, yes. But, we still keep in touch with everybody, the family's still quite close fortunately. So, what else would you like - - - DW 01:25:53 Are there other things that you brought in that you'd like to talk about? BP 01:25:57 Well, yes, I could tell you two things. One other thing that I did do, for some years in the late 60s, the government ran a building industry productivity group, which comprised of State Works, Commonwealth Works, the Master Builders Association, the Federal Master Builders, the quantity surveyors and the Institution of Engineers and I was chairman of that for two years. DW 01:26:29 Okay, and what was their role? BP 01:26:32 To generally look at how the various professions co-ordinated and we tried to do something but it was very difficult. Very difficult, and after two years I was chairman of that and then it folded up, somewhat after that and I don't think it ever happened after that. DW 01:26:56 You were involved in modular? BP 01:26:57 Yes. DW 01:26:57 Co-ordination of - - - BP 01:26:58 That's right, how did you find out all this? DW 01:27:02 I think it's your own words somewhere. BP 01:27:04 Somewhere. Okay, they had a modular society before metrication and we tried to do something about it and it wasn't very strong in Queensland, it was stronger in other states and I know I did an Australian symposium, or seminar or conference in Adelaide, that would have been in the mid 1960s, just before metrication came in, I did attend that, and I did attend one other conference in the early 1980s, in Sydney, on contracts and it was run by some legal firm and it was - all the papers and the papers were produced in a book, in quite a thick wallet, somebody stole my book, took my book and I never had it. The papers were delivered by spokesmen from most of the leading and biggest contractors in Australia. It was an absolute eye opener, because they told, openly, all the tricks they used in tendering and running contracts. 01:28:26 There were 137 delegates, I've never forgotten this, from all over Australia. Guess how many architects were there? Myself. DW 01:28:36 You. BP 01:28:37 The only architect that turned up to listen to how the builders and contractors went about tricking everybody, I was the only one. There was one other quantity surveyor from Queensland, from the State Works Department, and myself. The others came from all over the place. I was the only architect there and listened to this and we would do - at that time - we were dealing with one of these companies that delivered one of these papers and was it correct how try tried to trick you and how they tendered. It was very, very interesting. 01:29:11 It was a little publicised conference and yet you can imagine the implications of a conference like that to the profession and to the construction industry. By the way, you'll find when I resigned as an architect 1 July, 2007. Because there was no need for me to carry on. 01:29:38 I've got here, I did - a register of architects in April '94 in North Queensland they wrote to me. It was Lindsey Bond, no, somebody - I don't know who wrote that, Roger Dalton, I don't even know - he wrote to me and asked me the questions. I did deliver a paper to the university, a postgraduate lecture to the university, the Department of Architecture, God, I can even read when it was done, on contract administration, which is here. I kept it and I remember listening to it and - I'll keep that aside for the moment - you probably - - - DW 01:30:24 That looked like me, there's one from me there. BP 01:30:26 Donald Watson. I didn't even see, but I must have written to you. DW 01:30:31 You did, that's how I know because that's what I was quoting. BP 01:30:34 This is what you're - oh dear, dear, dear. DW 01:30:36 Your reply. BP 01:30:37 My reply, so I did do it Don. DW 01:30:39 You did. BP 01:30:38 So, I always reply and this is what I find so annoying, when people don't reply when you send stuff to people. But there, I gave you information on my history, which you've probably got have you? DW 01:30:50 Yeah, I have, I saw that. BP 01:30:52 And, then, a professional one of what I've done and then, buildings I'd worked on. DW 01:30:58 That would be interesting to see or get a copy of. BP 01:31:01 Yeah. My word, you keep that. My life's an open book. So, there you are, there's quite a lot of stuff there. By the way, as a matter of interest, seeing they're grading - it may be of interest to some people, in 1975 I was president of the Tropical Grassman's Society of the whole of Australia. DW 01:31:25 And, that was your cattle breeding? BP 01:31:26 Yes and pasture improvement in developing country. They alternated between a scientist and producer and they asked me whether I'd be interested and I'd been interested for quite some years in pasture improvement, so I said, "Yes, I would," so I had three years as vice president, president and immediate past president, and, it was a most enlightening - the society folded up a few years later, but I believe and I was told at the exhibition this year, when I went to - by one of the scientists - that they're resurrecting the whole business. 01:32:05 So, it was quite an interesting - and, then Lindsay Bond wrote to me once, did you know? After work that we'd been involved with in North Queensland. DW 01:32:21 Because he was based in Townsville? BP 01:32:22 He was based in Townsville. Yes. Did you want to see that, is that of interest? DW 01:32:28 What happened to Lindsay in the end? BP 01:32:30 I have no idea. No idea. DW 01:32:35 I had some sort of exchange with him at one stage. BP 01:32:37 Lindsay worked for us for a while. DW 01:32:40 Did he? BP 01:32:40 Yes. DW 01:32:40 Up there, or here? BP 01:32:42 I think in Brisbane actually, or up there, I'm unsure. DW 01:32:45 Maybe that's where I met him. But, for some time I ran across him. BP 01:32:49 Even the Governor General's husband worked for us for a while. So, you probably - whether you've got that I don't know. DW 01:33:08 So, that's the end of the tape, just about. JG 01:33:10 I don't know, there was still space, I don't know why it's stopped. Maybe there's something with the battery, but - - - DW 01:33:16 Because, we must be up to near two hours. JG 01:33:18 An hour and a half so far. DW 01:33:20 Okay. And, these are photos of - - - BP 01:33:24 That's probably the only photo in existence. That's signing the contract for Boystown down at Beaudesert. That's Monsignor Steele and John D Booker, the builder developer and yours truly. DW 01:33:38 That would be good to get a copy of. BP 01:33:40 It's probably the only one in existence. JG 01:33:42 I could take a photographs of it. For the exhibition. This is your professional record? BP 01:33:49 Some of it. DW 01:33:50 Some of it, yeah. BP 01:33:56 There's a little more there too if you like. JG 01:34:03 This would be interesting. BP 01:34:04 Yes. JG 01:34:04 Do you have a copy of- are these the same?> DW 01:34:09 I think that's a part of one maybe and that's a similar one, but we can - I can probably get Fryer to copy them. JG 01:34:15 Okay. Yeah. That would be good. BP 01:34:17 There's a photo of the original partners. DW 01:34:21 That's interesting. How fantastic. So, who's who? BP 01:34:27 Peter Newell, Theo Hutton, Neville Lund and myself. DW 01:34:32 And, where's it taken? BP 01:34:33 Out at Neville Lund's house at The Gap. JG 01:34:37 '82. BP 01:34:38 Yes, that was shortly before Neville died of - he must have died a little bit after that. He was in hospital, he was - you know - after he had cancer and that's the wake I think, the reason why Peter put the wake, so - - - DW 01:34:50 I see, put the picture up, yes. Isn't it funny, you assume Peter Newell always had white hair. It's a surprise to see it black. BP 01:35:03 He was black, he was. Actually, when you see him when he came back after the war as an officer, he looked the spitting image of Cary Grant in his hay day. DW 01:35:15 That wouldn't have done him any harm. BP 01:35:16 No, it certainly - I gather it didn't do him any harm. There you are I'll leave it, bits and pieces all dragged out. DW 01:35:32 These complicated completions and attributions are always going to be wrong. But, I do say, I do feel a bit guilty about your Phillip Goad price, I suspect has inherited my blame. BP 01:35:48 Well, I didn't hear a word Don. Didn't hear a word. DW 01:35:51 I think Al turned out to have written the Lund Hutton entry. BP 01:35:57 Yeah. Is that a fact? DW 01:35:58 Probably. BP 01:35:59 But, there we are, that's my mother's family's history and my father's family history. DW 01:36:04 Who did all the work tracking it back? BP 01:36:07 I think my sister wrote all this. But, my nephew's done the history of my father and there's his family tree, it was done for my brother. By the way, Harold said he'd rather not. DW 01:36:20 That's a shame. BP 01:36:21 He said he didn't have much to offer. He didn't think his life in architecture was as interesting as mine. DW 01:36:29 Is in he is a good nick as you? BP 01:36:32 Not quite, probably, his knees are not as good as they should be. DW 01:36:37 Where does he live? BP 01:36:39 Out at Kenmore. That's going back to - that's as far back as they went to. DW 01:36:45 I find beyond about a grandparent a bit hard to interpret. Grandparents are people you've met. Did you ever meet your grandparents? BP 01:36:54 Yes. Yes. Not my grandmother she died many years ago, but my grandfather, when I met him, he was about 91 or 93 I think. So, I knew him. DW 01:37:05 Why did they come to Australia? Your father's family. BP 01:37:07 My mother's - I'll answer that first with my mother's family. In the late 1890s, early 1900s, Norway was a very poor country and there was a big push to get Scandinavian migrants to come out and to farm in Australia. And, they came out and farmed, in fact, they went to Wilson's Plains, near Harrisville, and the farm they stayed at is mentioned in your book this is taken from. And the photograph - - - DW 01:37:46 In what context? BP 01:37:47 The house where they lived, there's a photograph of the original - the old drawing of the original house. Of the house that they lived in. DW 01:37:54 Done by Boland, by someone at Boland? BP 01:37:57 Someone from Ipswich, it was Clovelly, no, not Clovelly it was another name, I've got it at home anyway. So, there we are. So, that's - - - DW 01:38:08 So, you've got farming in your blood from before you did architecture? BP 01:38:11 Possibly through my grandfather, he was a graduate of an agricultural college in Norway. And, unfortunately agriculture in Norway wasn't quite like - - - DW 01:38:20 It was slightly different? BP 01:38:21 Slightly different to Australia and they came out to the great drought of 1900 to 1903 and everyone went broke. And, then my father came out in 1920, actually on a sailing ship, and came to Brisbane, met my mum and decided to stay. DW 01:38:42 Then he worked on the ships up to the gulf and - - - BP 01:38:44 Yes, but he - actually, it was interesting his master's tickets from Norway were not recognised here so he had to spend three years before he could come back and then can do that, and he went - it was sort of a bit of a mixed thing, then he went to live in the Solomon's amongst the cannibals on Malaita for three years in command of a schooner, recruiting native labour. We always said he was blackbirding, and he spent three years getting native labour to come and work on copra plantations. DW 01:39:15 Janina may not be aware of all of this. I mean, Queensland has a whole story of indentured labour from the South Sea Islands, until federation, in which the Commonwealth outlawed it. BP 01:39:21 That's right, so he lived there for three years and came back and became - worked on the coastal ships and became quite famous on the Queensland coast. DW 01:39:35 And, he died still on a ship? BP 01:39:37 Yes, he had a heart attack in 1953, just after they left Townsville, they managed to get back to Brisbane but he died a day or two after coming back to Brisbane. But, in those days, the heart, they couldn't fix the heart. So, he was quite famous on the coast. Yes, people even still remember. That's 60 years ago, so very well known. JG 01:40:12 That's famous. DW 01:40:15 And, who was your wife, has she died now? BP 01:40:17 Yes. Bette died on 15 May, 2008. She came from Roma and we met here - - - DW 01:40:27 On the land in Roma? BP 01:40:28 No. No. DW 01:40:29 In the town? BP 01:40:30 In the town, yes and I met her and we married - we were married for 55 years, she died of, basically dementia. So, it was, you know, many years we had - it was a problem. And, two daughters. DW 01:40:48 Neither of them did architecture? BP 01:40:49 No, both were - no, actually, we adopted both of them and my younger daughter died, 30 April, two years ago. So, I've only got - my elder daughter lives with me and she's never married so, she's got to keep me in the luxury to which I have been accustomed. JG 01:41:15 That's nice. BP 01:41:16 So, no, we live together and we have a very good relationship, which is good. So, what else can I tell you? DW 01:41:26 What were these other photos here? BP 01:41:28 There are a couple of other photos. That's a group of us, myself, Peter Newell,Theo Hutton, Maurice Hurst, Neville Lund and I think that's Betty Newell. That's taken up in the farm they had at Maleny. That was about - Neville didn't last, as you can see he wasn't very well at all at that stage. That's a photograph of a Christmas dinner we had at Brisbane, 1954 at Mama Luigi's. DW 01:42:12 That's a famous Brisbane - - - BP 01:42:13 That is famous, it's still going I gather. DW 01:42:15 Is it? BP 01:42:16 I read somewhere recently it's still going. That's the Ian Black there. And, these are the wives. DW 01:42:21 So, this is Peter Newell? BP 01:42:23 Peter Newell, Theo Hutton, Nev Lund, Darvel Miller. DW 01:42:27 We were talking about Darvel Miller. BP 01:42:30 He worked for us for quite a while and then he set himself up with his mass produced housing that he sold all over the world. DW 01:42:38 What were they like? BP 01:42:40 They were quite good. DW 01:42:41 Where they? BP 01:42:42 He had quite a good business, but he wasn't a good businessman, that was his problem. Like all architects. That's Darvel Miller, that's - who's that - Edmiston, Ian Edmiston, and, he became a partner of Conrad and Gargett, I've forgotten his name and that's myself, looking somewhat younger. DW 01:43:08 And, these are the various wives? BP 01:43:11 That's my wife, that's Joy Hunt was our secretary, who's that - don't know who that is - that's Shirley Miller I think. Is it? That's Joy Hutton, no, no, Joy Lund, that's - who's that - - - DW 01:43:33 If they're near their spouses it would be Newell's wife would it, Betty, not Betty Newell ? BP 01:43:37 No, that's Betty, that's Joy Hutton's sister, that's right. Joy Hutton's sister, that's Val Black there and then Joy Lund, who's the next one there? Shirley Miller, I was right, and Joy Hunt and then me. That's my wife's writing. JG 01:43:54 And that, maybe, is that Duncan McPhee? BP 01:43:55 Duncan McPhee! That's who it is, that's right. DW 01:43:59 They've interviewed Duncan. JG 01:44:02 Yeah, I thought I recognised him. BP 01:44:04 He'd look a bit older than that. He was - - - DW 01:44:05 So, how long did he work for you? BP 01:44:08 He worked in our Brisbane office for quite a reasonable time, a year or two - a couple of years, something like that. Not when I was there I don't think. DW 01:44:15 No. BP 01:44:18 Gee, we all look younger don't we. DW 01:44:29 And, you get a reasonable result, just like that? JG 01:44:30 Hmm mmm. BP 01:44:32 He's another one. Col Denham. DW 01:44:35 Okay. BP 01:44:37 There we are, that's probably all written on the back to there. DW 01:44:40 That's very helpful of someone. BP 01:44:41 Bette done that, Bette did it. She was good, you know. DW 01:44:45 So, who are these, I don't recognise some of the faces there? BP 01:44:48 Elmars Krams and that's his partner Lilly. I'm sure it is Lilly Krams. She was a very lovely lady. She was Danish. They met in Europe I think, as displaced persons or something like that. Col Denham. DW 01:45:10 Did you have anything to do with - Weller would have been in the Works Department? BP 01:45:12 Pardon? DW 01:45:13 Jim Weller would have been in the Works Department when you were there. BP 01:45:15 Yes Jim, yes Jim Weller, yes. J A Weller. DW 01:45:18 Do you remember him? BP 01:45:19 Yes, I knew him well. He lectured at the university, that's right, he was one of the lecturers. DW 01:45:24 Okay. BP 01:45:24 He lectures, I think he lectured us in sanitation, building sanitation. There you are, how's that, now it all comes back to me. You're jogging my memory Donald. DW 01:45:37 I always thought he was a bit of a victim, I think he was probably very good in his own right, but going through the depression - the depression sort of killed him and then the war - - - BP 01:45:44 And then he went in art gallery. DW 01:45:47 Yeah, well he did a whole lot of peripheral things. BP 01:45:48 Oh yes. DW 01:45:49 But, he had a hard time in the Works Department. BP 01:45:51 That's right and then he ended up chief architect for a while didn't he? DW 01:45:53 He did, but was shunted to the side and not given any role. BP 01:45:57 And, I gather the reason was that they - wasn't it the art gallery the - - - DW 01:46:01 The library. BP 01:46:02 With that awful mosaic. I think that detracted from - - - DW 01:46:06 Ruined his career. BP 01:46:08 Ruined his career. I think that was why wasn't it? DW 01:46:11 Well, that's an element in it, that's right. I mean, the whole library job was a catastrophe. BP 01:46:14 But he was a laid back character that sorted drifted along. DW 01:46:18 Was he? Yes. BP 01:46:19 Yes. DW 01:46:20 People like Stukov [01:46:20] weren't there in your day? BP 01:46:21 Yuri? DW 01:46:23 Yeah. BP 01:46:24 He worked for us for a while. DW 01:46:25 Did he? BP 01:46:26 Yes, Yuri Stukov. I first - - - DW 01:46:28 Well, he was a true character. BP 01:46:30 Yes, a wild man. I first met him when I played cricket for the old boys at the grammar school and Yuri was the school's opening fast bowler. One would whistle passed your head, the next one would go that way - a wild man and he was a wild man, he was an architect to. Yuri Stukov, I forgot about - - - DW 01:46:50 He was absolutely unconventional. BP 01:46:52 Very unconventional, and then the chap Hall, what's his name? DW 01:46:57 Not Russell Hall? BP 01:46:58 Russell, he worked for us for a while too. DW 01:46:59 Yes. Okay BP 01:47:00 Another unconventional person. DW 01:47:02 Yeah, from Harrisville. BP 01:47:03 Harrisville - his father was a farmer, I had a farm near where his parents had their dairy farm. Yes. DW 01:47:08 Yes. How long did he work for you? BP 01:47:10 I can't remember. DW 01:47:12 I see Russell a lot. BP 01:47:14 Is Austin Lee still alive? DW 01:47:16 I don't know Austin Lee. BP 01:47:17 He was a Chinese man, architect, and his brother was an architect or is an architect. His - Austin, big problem was his English was so, it was fractured. It was very poor and when he went into private practice he got himself into a bit of strife on and off. DW 01:47:39 Because of the language problem? BP 01:47:41 I would think it was because of the language problem and not fully understanding both ways. Yes. A nice fellow, but, you know - - - DW 01:47:53 This guy Stukov, in protest to the terrible working conditions at the Works Department, the excessive heat, in a 1961 edition that they did after you were there, but it was terrible and he would work almost naked as a complaint about how impossibly hot it was. JG 01:48:14 That's unconventional, yes. BP 01:48:19 We had a fellow that did that in our office. I wasn't there at the time, but he stripped to his underpants. JG 01:48:29 I think we're going to run out of tape in one minute, so - - - DW 01:48:34 Well, thank you very much Bruce. BP 01:48:36 Well, thank you very much for asking. I'd be very happy if you want to fill in gaps or for me to vet anything or add to anything that you'd like. JG 01:48:46 Okay. That's wonderful. BP 01:48:47 Because, I'm sure - you know - this has sort of wandered all over the place. JG 01:48:52 Yeah. But, certainly, we might want to talk to you again to elaborate on some things. BP 01:48:56 To straighten it out. Yes, you might pick up something and say you'd like to know a bit more about him or a bit more about certain people, because, you know, I knew a lot of the architects in those days. JG 01:49:09 That will be clearly - - - DW 01:49:11 If you did have any time just to jot down whenever you thought of it, I know you almost need an interview to trigger it, but just to record memories of people is very interesting, because a lot of these people are very hard to track down. BP 01:49:21 I jumped at the opportunity when you asked me Don, because - - - END OF TRANSCRIPT END OF TRANSCRIPT 1